My Q&A with Dwayne Epstein

​As a writer for Filmfax Magazine, Dwayne Epstein published comprehensive articles on everyone from Bobby Darin to film director Sam Fuller. His recent biography, “Lee Marvin: Point Blank,” is a comprehensive biographical work on a very complicated actor and is consistently among the top sellers in non-fiction. The work is accessible, comprehensive, detailed and professionally paced. Quite frankly, it is a seminal piece of work by a great writer. A while back, I devoured this work on one of my favorite actors and was so impressed, I reached out to the author. Dwayne was modest, sincere and appreciative and I am so glad that he took the time to visit with us today. Ladies and gentlemen, my Q & A with Mr. Dwayne Epstein.
 
Lee Marvin was a complicated man. What made you want to tackle the subject?
 
DE: First off, let me thank you for having me as a guest on your blog as it’s very much appreciated. As to your first question, you should know that I get asked that a lot. Lee Marvin has always fascinated me. I’m a baby boomer and I grew up watching The Dirty Dozen on TV, way back when they were showing it in two parts. I can watch it now and distinctly remember when the first part would end and the second part would begin. In all of his films, he was always very distinct to me, even when he was not the leading actor. Even more so after I decided to write a book on him, and the more I found out about him. He was much more than he was on screen, obviously, just like most people are. He was a fascinating man. When I researched the book, I discovered he really was the first of his kind, I mean of the post-war actors; he pretty much created the modern America cinema of violence as we know it.   

 
 It seems my impressionable childhood was affected by these three Marvin films; “Cat Ballou,” “The Professionals,” and “Point Blank.” (I include Dirty Dozen in this as well but feel overall, that these three had more of an impact on me.) What are your top five Lee Marvin films and why? 
 
DE: I read the blog you wrote in preparation for this entry and saw almost all of my favorites on your list, you sneaky devil! Truth be told, for such a lengthy career, I think five films is too limiting, especially since his career evolved in different stages. The first stage was playing smaller roles in some great and mediocre films. Then he went a lengthy period playing major roles or second leads until his middle-aged ascent into stardom. I have favorites in all three stages of his career. 
Off the top of my head, of his early roles, I loved him in a strange little film called "Shack Out on 101" (1955). It's a Cold War thriller that practically defies description but I highly recommend it for its entertainment value alone, which cannot be overestimated. He also was wonderful in a cult western with Randolph Scott called "Seven Men From Now" (1956). The dialogue scene in the covered wagon and the film's finale is some of the best work Marvin's ever done. There's also "The Wild One" (1954), "The Big Heat" (1953), "Bad Day at Black Rock" (1955) and "Raintree County" (1957), superior films in either execution or budget in which Marvin is a true stand out in every scene he's in.
   For the mid-point in his career he was amazing in "The Comancheros" (1961), "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" (1962), "Donavan's Reef" (1963) and "The Killers" (1964). The films themselves may vary in quality but not Marvin's performances. He steals scenes from everyone around him, including the likes of Ronald Reagan, John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart.
 Once he established himself as a major star in the mid-sixties, he made a string of action films that are almost unprecedented in both their production value and his memorable performances in them. "The Professionals" (1966) is a personal favorite in that group as well as "The Dirty Dozen." Several of these films still stand the test of time no matter how old they are but even more amazing is how believable Marvin remained as a middle-aged action star. The silver hair, aged features and deep resonant voice worked for him, not against him even in the overblown musical "Paint Your Wagon "(1969), which is a favorite guilty pleasure. Of course, I must include "The Big Red One" (1980).
  Like many of the post-war actors of his generation he also gave great performances on television. One of my favorites was a dramatic special directed by John Frankenheimer called “The American” in which Marvin played Native American WWII hero Ira Hayes. He was subdued and poignant in the role and it was the only time he ever played a combat Marine, which he was in real life.
​

What is it about Lee Marvin that resonates so much with a young, male audience? 
 
DE: Interesting question as my research has shown that a few years back a poll was taken by MTV viewers who named Marvin’s character in Point Blank the fifth toughest badass of all-time. The obvious answer then to that question is that Marvin is indeed a badass and appreciated on that level. 
    Personally, I think it’s a little deeper than that. He came to stardom older than most other actors and looked it. Don’t get me wrong, he wasn’t ancient. He just looked more experienced thereby making him look more capable of what he did on screen and what he did on screen was pretty impressive. That truly resonates and it’s hardly as dated as watching a John Wayne film from the same time period. 
  I actually discovered how much he resonates with some younger audiences when I encountered a group of Orange County Gen Xer’s who called themselves the Bastard Sons Of Lee (BSOL). I was so impressed after meeting them I became a member myself. They explain their appreciation of all things Marvin pretty well in my book. 
​

In his best work, Marvin had a precision in his acting style. Do you think part of this stems from his time in the Marines and WW II?
 
DE: Absolutely! He once famously said he learned how to act by being in the Marines. He explained it offhandedly by stating that that it was a matter of learning how to act like he wasn’t scared when he truly was but obviously there was more to it than that. Being in the USMC after having been a discipline problem in school taught him how to get things done his own way while telling his C.O. what he wanted to hear. Several people who knew him well told me that. Being a Marine he also got his DNA hard wired to always show up on time no matter what transpired the night before and do your job. He was a Marine through and through.
 
There is something tragic about the end of Lee Marvin’s career. Ultimately, was it his drinking, his personal life or his choice in projects that cut short what could have been a much longer and even more brilliant career?
 
DE: My guess is a combination of all three, which is often the case in most instances. A popular sociological question poised by most historians is “Do the times make the man or does the man make the times?” Obviously the answer is probably combination of the two. Would FDR had made a great president if he didn’t have polio? I’m not putting Lee Marvin in FDR’s category of greatness but you get the point.
  As to the end of Marvin’s life, just for fun I like to theorize what he might have done had he lived a little longer, which I did as an appendix in the back of the book. 
 
I find your sections on Lee Marvin’s politics fascinating. He supported John Kennedy for President, was against the Viet Nam war and was a life-long democrat. What motivated Lee Marvin politically?
 
DE: Like most of us, his political point of view was formed early in life and was most likely a result of his upbringing. His parents were life-long Democrats as was his brother, whom I got to know fairly well. Keep in mind though, his mother Courtenay was a working woman but she was also a steel magnolia from Virginia, making her more of what used to be called a Dixiecrat. Now we call that thinking ‘Blue Dog’ Democrats. As he got older, Marvin did get a little more conservative but I doubt if he voted Republican. After Kennedy’s assassination he never spoke publicly about his politics again other than some off-handed remarks on certain issues, such as gay rights or civil rights both of which he supported.
​

How long did it take you to write this book, from idea to draft?
 
DE: Not intentionally but it took me nearly two decades! Interesting story is how I came about to take on the project, initially. Like you, I dabbled in stand-up comedy and other things while working as a waiter and doing the occasional writing gig. I’ve always been a huge Steve McQueen fan and when biographer Marshall Terrill published his book "Steve McQueen: Portrait of A Rebel," I noted some minor discrepancies. On a lark, I attempted to contact him and much to my surprise, he responded and we met for dinner.  
I guess I may have been trying to impress him because I recall that fairly early in the conversation he told me that with my knowledge of film I should write a film biography of a favorite actor myself. My sarcastic response was, "I'd like to but you already wrote it!" It did not take long for the conversation to then turn to the possibility of who I could write about. Being the movie fan that I am there were of course a plethora of choices but what narrowed the field was market considerations. Marshall had been a marketing major in college and following that had also worked in the business world. His input on that level was valuable as we ticked off a list of major stars who really had not had a definitive bio written about them. It was that marketing challenge that brought us to Lee Marvin. There had been one or two previous books on the subject but nothing that could possibly be called definitive. 
   I told him I would think about it but from that moment on, he never gave up trying to talk me into it. Despite any differences we may have had through the years, as well as my own insecurities, he has remained one of the book's biggest champions and for that I am eternally grateful.
 
 
How long did you spend on research alone?
 
DE: Not long after my conversation with Marshall, I began the initial research on the project and that was back in 1994. Believe me, had I known it would take nearly 20 years to get published, I doubt very highly if I would have pursued it. Luckily, it was a subject I did not ever tire of researching. The more I found out, the more enthused I became. It's funny in that even Lee's first wife, Betty said to me at one point, "Aren't you getting sick of Lee? I would be and I was married to the man!" 
   The reason it took so long quite simply is the fact that every major publisher I approached told me the same, thing. With all due respect to Marshall's business acumen, they all said there was no market and no one is interested in a book on Lee Marvin. 
   All that changed permanently when I switched agents for the third time. The previous agents were okay but not nearly as persistent as the late Mike Hamilburg. I should point out that even though I continued researching and cataloging information on Marvin the project was put on the back burner for a few years when I had to help my ailing parents. My father passed away from Alzheimer's in 2005 and my mother passed from heart disease three years later. When the smoke settled, I got back in contact with Mike Hamilburg, revamped my entire work up to that time to create a stronger proposal and in less than a year he had an interested publisher. I cannot say enough about either Hamilburg's belief in the project nor publisher Tim Schaffner's mission within his company Schaffner Press to put out a quality product while the rest of the publishing world thumbed their noses.
   It may have taken nearly 20 years but to my mind, it was worth it. When I'd get the inevitable rejection letters Marshall told me to keep them as reminders for when I do get published. He was right about that. In July of 2014 Lee Marvin Point Blank became the number 4 best-selling non-fiction E-book on the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Publisher's Weekly bestseller lists. More importantly, it became an amazing life lesson for me by example: No matter the odds, if you believe in what you're doing, never give up on your dream!
​

Let’s back up a bit and talk about your writing career. How did you get started? 
 
DE: Well, I’ll tell you like this. I did kind of okay in school but I really seemed to excel when an assignment or a test required an essay. Not being the brightest guy when it came to recognizing my own ability, I didn't realize how many times my writing ability saved me from bad grades until I was MUCH older. As the old saying goes, sometimes it's not so much a light bulb that goes off as a whack in the back of the head with a 2x4 that does that trick.
 When I was in college, I wrote for the school paper and also entered and won several Phi Theta Kappa writing contests on campus. That proved to be the whack in the head with the 2x4. I decided to give it a try from there as a professional. I had written some freelance articles for a publisher of five local papers in New Jersey and the editor eventually hired me on staff. I enjoyed working there and learned a lot. I eventually chose to move back to California for personal reasons but there was one aspect of working at Cranbury Publications that has stayed with me to this day. One of the sales people there and I became very close and as I like to say, I was Jimmy Olson to her Lois Lane. Barbara and I have been together ever since.
  Anyway, When I came back to California, I found work on several other local papers and then began working for a gentleman named Mike Miller who ran a company called Miller Education Materials. He sold books to schools throughout the country and as his managing editor, we put together the catalog for three companies in all. I learned a lot there as well, including earning my first book publishing credit when Mr. Miller decided to branch out a little more. Unfortunately, after 9/11 the company suffered financially and I was laid off. Being a lifelong movie fan I was also freelancing for Filmfax and Outré magazines at the same time. That was where my initial research on Lee Marvin first saw the light of day.
 
When did you first get interested in the making of film and the talent it takes to make it all happen?
 
 DE: If my mother was to be believed, it started for me shortly after birth. Seriously. I have two older sisters and as was the common practice of the day, my parents would wrangle us all into the station wagon and got to the drive-in on a hot night so the kids would all eventually fall asleep. According to my mother, both of my sisters — two and six years older than I — would be fast asleep in about twenty minutes while I, no more than a few months old, would continue to stare at the lights coming off the screen through the entire double feature. I found that hard to believe but my mother assured me it was the truth.
 My love of films came largely from her, as she was a big movie fan when she was growing up. She would wake me up in the middle of the night if a good movie were on, even if it were a school night. 
   Some times her efforts would back fire, though. I remember once when I was about nine or ten years old. I was doing something terrible and she decided to use psychology on me instead of punishing me as usual. "Angels with Dirty Faces" was on TV that day and she forced me to watch it from beginning to end. Without ruining the ending, she asked me afterwards, “Did you learn your lesson about being a bad boy?” I turned away from the TV, wiped the tears from my eyes and said to her, “Yeah, I learned a lesson. James Cagney is great!” Been a Cagney fan ever since. Thanks, Ma! 
 
You’ve worked and continue to work for a series of film magazines. What is your attraction to motion pictures and film criticism?
 
DE: It was just a natural progression from my original fascination. What aided me immensely was growing up in the 1970s, a time of intense interest in filmmaking in general. For example, I have a vivid memory of watching Richard Schickel's PBS series, "The Men Who Made the Movies," back in the 70s when I was VERY young. Up until then, I never even gave much consideration to the importance of the director to a film and the concept changed my thinking, dramatically. In fact, some of the subjects in Schickel's series, such as Raoul Walsh and Bill Wellman, proved even more fascinating than the films they made!
An even greater example of early influences is a series of books put out by Citadel Press entitled "The Films of..."The entire series (each title of interest of varying quality) was a revelation to this young starstruck movie fan. Imagine for a moment you're looking for any well-illustrated information on the stars, genres, and periods of filmmaking that you love, long before the days of the internet, and you stumble up such a rack at the local mall's bookstore.
  I was so bold at such a young age, I even went so far as to write the publisher and ask if I could write a book called "The Films of Steve McQueen." I was politely told that one was in the works but thanks for the offer. They were right, of course. One did come out...about ten years later.
   The existing titles varied in quality, as I said, but I noticed the same very prolific writer authored several of the best. His name was Tony Thomas and for reasons I can no longer recall, I was fortunate to meet up with him in his home in southern California.
  I was extremely impressed with his kind demeanor, countless soundtracks shelved on the wall (many produced by him!) and his amazing patience with me. In fact, He simply handed me several soundtracks as we spoke and signed them all! I still have them. He signed the soundtrack to Robin Hood, “To Dwayne, a kindred Spirit.” What he wrote remains a treasured possession. I wonder if anybody does that kind of thing any more.
 
 
12. What is your education?
 
DE: Public schools in both New York and California as I was growing up. Following that, I was a Liberal Arts major and was also Phi Theta Kappa when I attended Mercer County Community College in New Jersey. Even though it was a community college there were some wonderful teachers there I remember with great fondness. I had planned to go on to Rutgers but as John Lennon said, life is what happens while your busy making other plans, such as having to pay bills and the like. 
   I guess what I’m trying to say is that my formal higher education is rather abbreviated but the experience I’ve garnered outside of school is quite plentiful. A friend of mine, Bill Krohn, is a wonderful cinema historian, having written book on everyone from Luis Bunuel to Alfred Hitchcock and he paid me a wonderful compliment. He said, “You may not have gone to Harvard, like I did, but you are a serious self-taught film historian.”
​

What’s next for you? 

DE: To tell you the truth, ever since my agent passed away in 2016 my writing career has being lying kind of fallow. I still get the occasional freelance gig via the likes of Emmy.com, which I love. I also maintain a blog on Lee Marvin to continue to boost sales, as it’s pretty amazing how much Lee Marvin remains in the media. However, the bigger projects I’d like to do haven’t quite come together yet but they are definitely in the pipeline and there may be news on that front very soon. Keep your fingers crossed!

Thank you, Dwayne!

What a fantastic visit and what a terrific book. Folks, I urge you to go out and purchase a copy of this book. It is available at all of your favorite bookstores and, of course, on Amazon. There's a link here...www.amazon.com/dp/B00B0SAF3S/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_Z6tyDbVKS2FEF